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Subject:
Re: Obama now owns GM
From: "CardsFan" <me(at)here.com>
Subject: Re: Obama now owns GM
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:18:12 -0400
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Bytes: 5457
________________________________________________
"WayneC" <WayneC(at)linkline.moc> wrote in message
news:bPKdnTJrLInEHk_UnZ2dnUVZ_rbinZ2d(at)linkline.com...
> CardsFan wrote:
>> "WayneC" <WayneC(at)linkline.moc> wrote in message
>> news:ReCdnesQTdMLxk_UnZ2dnUVZ_h2dnZ2d(at)linkline.com...
>>> Speaker of the Truth wrote:
>>>> Ever hear the song "too much too little too late"
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I`d argue that Wagoner was steadily doing the right things, but hampered
>>> (slowed & blocked) by pesky little things like union contracts &
>>> negotiations, local politics in every town affected by his proposed
>>> changes, green laws, etc, etc. The guy was a 31-year employee, not an
>>> outsider emotionally unaffected by the changes he attempted to make.
>>
>> The whole point is the corporation has to have someone with an entirely
>> new agenda to survive, not someone who`s sitting around pining for the
>> good old days. The automotive world has radically changed and if it does
>> not adapt, GM is dead. It would have been dead already without taxpayer
>> help, so Mr. Wagoner was out of a job either way.
>>
> My point is that Obama isn`t hampered by contractual legal agreements, he
> proved that with the AIG bonuses.... Wagoner had to honor those
> legalities.
Like everyone else, Obama is bound by the law. His directive was to "find
any legal means" to reclaim the AIG bonuses. It was the House which passed
a law to tax the bonuses at 90%, a law which probably will run afoul of the
Constitution. Obama has not signaled support for that law.
> Obama can wheedle the democratic mayors (and the union bosses) and promise
> them largesse from the US treasury to smooth over the changes he`d like to
> make in the auto industry... Wagoner could not.
> Obama could have done the wheedling and still leave Wagoner in charge of
> the change, but he needed a boogeyman for us peons to blame.
They threw out the head of AIG too. The only thing Obama has said is that
he`s committed to a sustainable US auto industry, and that the government
will honor GM/Chrysler warranties. I concede that the only way Wagoner
could have "saved" the company was to take it into bankruptcy. Its legacy
costs would have forced that already had they not thrown themselves at the
feet of the taxpayer.
> I still think Wagoner did as much, and went as fast in bringing change, as
> he was able to do, I do not think he was in the same arrogant mold as the
> prior bean counters who ruined GM for so many years. I think he got hit by
> a world-wide economic credit crunch at precisely the wrong time, when
> company coffers were low (partly from the costs of changes he`d been
> making), and before his changes began to pay off. You`ll note that the
> governor of Michigan called Wagoner a "sacrificial lamb", noting the many
> changes he`d already made and the much-improved products just going into
> production, while still retaining the good will of the politicians and
> union.
I just bought a lightly used car this past weekend, a 2008 Acura TL that was
a dealer service department loaner. I looked hard at the Malibu, and every
single car I saw on the lot/showroom had fit and finish issues of one sort
or another. Panels didn`t align, gaps were inconsistent on opposite sides
of the car, etc. My honest opinion is that none of those cars would ever
have made it out of a Honda factory. It`s not American workers, my car was
made in Ohio. I blame the engineers for poor design. If you tell me that`s
because the bean counters won`t let the engineers do their thing, I can`t
argue with you because I don`t know the inner workings of the company.
> I would rather see a "car guy" in charge of GM, but as I recall, they did
> have one of those in the late 80`s and he wasn`t up to the rest of the
> job... to paraphrase what one TV commentator said, GM today is a
> retirement and health benefits company that operates a car-making business
> on the side to help defray the costs of it`s public service obligations. I
> just happen to think Wagoner was closer to a "car guy" than the string of
> financial guys that preceded him, and that he did push change.
Remember "Roger and Me" when Michael Moore was funny, before he became a
self-righteous jerk?
AJM
`93 40th Anniversary coupe, 6 sp (both tops)
From: pj <pj4380(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Obama now owns GM
Lines: 144
NNTP-Posting-Host: 72.199.179.29
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:20:30 -0700
Bytes: 7009
________________________________________________
WayneC wrote:
> CardsFan wrote:
>> "WayneC" <WayneC(at)linkline.moc> wrote in message
>> news:ReCdnesQTdMLxk_UnZ2dnUVZ_h2dnZ2d(at)linkline.com...
>>> Speaker of the Truth wrote:
>>>> Ever hear the song "too much too little too late"
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I`d argue that Wagoner was steadily doing the right things, but
>>> hampered (slowed & blocked) by pesky little things like union
>>> contracts & negotiations, local politics in every town affected by
>>> his proposed changes, green laws, etc, etc. The guy was a 31-year
>>> employee, not an outsider emotionally unaffected by the changes he
>>> attempted to make.
Well said! Unfortunately, BK looks like the
only way to shed the baggage and BK appeared to
be Wagoner`s `line in the sand.` Fritz has a
bit less of that `baggage` and can look himself
in the mirror while making the next round of
hard choices. I give him 180 days on the job.
Obama may be considering 90 days.
The cover of last week`s TIME magazine said it all.
>>
>> The whole point is the corporation has to have someone with an
>> entirely new agenda to survive, not someone who`s sitting around
>> pining for the good old days. The automotive world has radically
>> changed and if it does not adapt, GM is dead. It would have been dead
>> already without taxpayer help, so Mr. Wagoner was out of a job either
>> way.
Yup; and, his stock options weren`t worth much!
>
> My point is that Obama isn`t hampered by contractual legal agreements,
> he proved that with the AIG bonuses.... Wagoner had to honor those
> legalities. Obama can wheedle the democratic mayors (and the union
> bosses) and promise them largesse from the US treasury to smooth over
> the changes he`d like to make in the auto industry... Wagoner could not.
> Obama could have done the wheedling and still leave Wagoner in charge of
> the change, but he needed a boogeyman for us peons to blame.
Hmmm, I thought we already spent the Treasury.
Next act: fake how much gold is stored in Fort
Knox.
>
> I still think Wagoner did as much, and went as fast in bringing change,
> as he was able to do, I do not think he was in the same arrogant mold as
> the prior bean counters who ruined GM for so many years. I think he got
> hit by a world-wide economic credit crunch at precisely the wrong time,
> when company coffers were low (partly from the costs of changes he`d
> been making), and before his changes began to pay off. You`ll note that
> the governor of Michigan called Wagoner a "sacrificial lamb", noting the
> many changes he`d already made and the much-improved products just going
> into production, while still retaining the good will of the politicians
> and union.
I think Wagoner, "meant well." We have to
remember that he was *Chairman of the Board of
Directors*. He failed to lead the Board to
maintain GM as a profitable enterprise with a
sound balance sheet. He was in charge when the
Book value went into negative territory.
The ship ran aground, a couple of times in 2005
when Wagoner and the Board failed to understand
the fallacies of their inventory valuation. (the
Sloan system of cooking the books). That was
obvious when the valuation of finished goods,
parts and material inventory was being based on
MSRP rather than on the actual net selling price
after "incentives." The ship sank in early 2008
(when corporate book value passed through zero
and cash flow was negative.)
Ask any Navy guy -- you `shitcan` the Commanding
Officer when the ship runs aground. You don`t
wait for it to sink. There is no reason for
doing otherwise.
>
> I would rather see a "car guy" in charge of GM, but as I recall, they
> did have one of those in the late 80`s and he wasn`t up to the rest of
> the job... to paraphrase what one TV commentator said, GM today is a
> retirement and health benefits company that operates a car-making
> business on the side to help defray the costs of it`s public service
> obligations. I just happen to think Wagoner was closer to a "car guy"
> than the string of financial guys that preceded him, and that he did
> push change.
Agree. But the string of `financial guys`
weren`t very good at their own trade. Bluntly,
their forecasting sucked as bad as their
operating statements sucked.
All this may prove that Obama is the only "car
guy" on the block who can keep GM in the car
business.
Fritz`s job is to fit the `needed product line`
into a `clear balance sheet.` That dictum seems
daunting and I wish him well.
I doubt that GM has the bits and pieces on the
shelf (or even has drawing numbers and bill of
materials) to build the "needed product line."
(producible cars that will meet CAFE, buyer
desires, and also meet government profit
objectives.)
I fear there will be little room for future
model changes to Corvette. Worse, some forced
plant closures may restrict Corvette assembly to
shelf-stocks of components until vendor sources
outside the GM umbrella can be started. At that
point the `vette may price itself out of the
production car market.
Wonder what Dad`s cut is on this? (How
interdependent is Corvette on the rest of the GM
line to meet it`s Build Sheets?)
Maybe best for Corvette and for GM to sell the
whole marque.
We may find ourselves importing `gray market`
`vettes made in India by a joint venture of Tata
and Fiat. And, built to European or
Middle-eastern standards.
Possibly purchased thru the /Dick Cheney
Corvette/ franchise in downtown Abu-Dhabi but
drop-shipped into Ensenada for nighttime
delivery in Ciudad Juarez under some NAFTA waiver.
Shame this can`t be a big smiley :)
--
pj
From: "Dad" <knockers(at)fisher.net>
Subject: Re: Obama now owns GM
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:14:10 -0400
Lines: 79
NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.201.44.9
Bytes: 5198
________________________________________________
"pj" <pj4380(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0gOAl.207208$6r1.72109(at)newsfe19.iad...
Snip
> Wonder what Dad`s cut is on this? (How interdependent is Corvette
> on the rest of the GM line to meet it`s Build Sheets?)
>
> Maybe best for Corvette and for GM to sell the whole marque.
>
> We may find ourselves importing `gray market` `vettes made in India
> by a joint venture of Tata and Fiat. And, built to European or
> Middle-eastern standards.
>
> Possibly purchased thru the /Dick Cheney Corvette/ franchise in
> downtown Abu-Dhabi but drop-shipped into Ensenada for nighttime
> delivery in Ciudad Juarez under some NAFTA waiver.
>
> Shame this can`t be a big smiley :)
>
> --
> pj
I don`t think much of it at all, the profit pig is in a death spiral.
For far to many years GM has feed the money to fat cats, both in the
industry and their tax sucking friends in the government. It will
survive but in a very disfigured form. Those fat cats will make all in
the middle scrimp and look for other ways to make their way in life.
We will now see a shift of money direction which will help the company
not one bit but will help all those that are so needy.
Think Post Office for the talent shown by a government controlled
business. Where else can you get to retirement quicker, with better
benefits; with less effort; than if you were working for GM? Check out
what our Postmaster General makes with wages, bonus, healthcare, and
retirement, not quite a million but who`s counting? Where else can you
have the internet looking up your ass for years without noticing that
you need to change or die, ala Mr. Wagoner`s type of thinking? Where
else can a package carrying company start up and do your business for
you while you watch? Where else can you see people doing nothing and
be frustrated enough in their job to go postal? Yep, GM, the
government is here to help.
GM is at the best point to "bargain" with the union that they have
ever been but the government is going to take that advantage and piss
it away. Sure, they will make a big production about "look at what we
did", (somewhere around late 2011) when in fact it is already done.
Rick didn`t have the balls to dump on his friends, why should he? I`m
sure he won`t starve or have to walk to the store to see if today`s
allotment of milk came in. Oops, that`s in Russia, China, Cuba, and
the new USA where the government "runs" (?) everything. As government
projects go it will take a while but they will get it done with your
money.
My use of automobiles has been fun and coming to an end so I could
care less about GM, but I do care about my grandchildren and what
their life will be like. With any amount of government interference it
will not get better and certainly will be more costly in money and
freedoms.
I also wonder what a Corvette built with the Tata type of construction
would be like. No government mandates, no air bags, no bull dozer
blade bumpers, no side impact bars, no ABS, but I need to stop and
accept the computer controls of the drive train and the CNC machined
high tech components that have been refined to optimum performance.
Wait, I had all of that in my 2780 pound cast iron V8 powered `61,
sigh, less the modern aluminum drive train. A C7 may never exist
unless it is a reskin to ring the last bit of profit out of the
engineering that went into the chassis and drive train. Damn, there I
go again, isn`t profit a no no, the thing that the government
penalizes you for making? It will not survive on it`s own, think
Delorean, Bricklin, Stutz, and Cord, (the last 2 are from pj`s youth).
--
Dad
Life is a sexually transmitted condition that is always fatal.
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